Subject: [VP] Who started it?
Date: 24 Jun 1999 
From: Blue Starsky < 

I'm pretty new to slash - been writing and reading it for just under a year
now. Up until last year, I had no idea such stories existed, outside my head
and the minds of a few of my closest friends! ;-)

Anyway, now I'm wondering, when did it start? This may be a question without
a clear answer. Maybe someone was conjuring slash stories in her head as
Shakespeare was churning out the plays. Probably. And what about that 'Adam
and Steve' play that I just heard about??

Here's my Q: With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing
and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin? Seems like so many current
shows have slash stories being written about them.  I might want to see S&H
as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles.
Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around
uncles.......

Thanks,
Blue

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: 24 Jun 1999 
From: Melora

Blue Starsky wrote:
> I'm pretty new to slash - been writing and reading it for just under a year
> now. Up until last year, I had no idea such stories existed, outside my head
> and the minds of a few of my closest friends! ;-)

GMTA  (great minds think alike)

> Anyway, now I'm wondering, when did it start?

uh---70's, I think.  I got into slash a *looooong* time ago--
early eighties, and there was tons of stuff then.  ST, S/H, Pros.
Got out of fandom for a long time and then rediscovered it
when I got a computer and did a search one night on ST.

> This may be a question without
> a clear answer. Maybe someone was conjuring slash stories in her head as
> Shakespeare was churning out the plays. Probably. And what about that'Adam
> and Steve' play that I just heard about??

so, what about Adam and Steve?  I wanna know.

> Here's my Q:With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing
> and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin?

As far as I know, slash started with
Star Trek:TOS  (the original series)

Kirk and Spock and Pon Farr, Oh!  My!!

>  Seems like so many current
> shows have slash stories being written about them.  I might want to see S&H
> as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles.
> Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around
> uncles.......

Oh, jeez. Blue---*when* are we gonna get to read some of your
stuff?  I love the pictures you paint with your words.

Marcia  ; ]

>

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 
From: Regina 

At 08:45 PM 6/24/99 PDT, Blue Starsky wrote:
>Here's my Q: With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing
>and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin? Seems like so many current
>shows have slash stories being written about them.  I might want to see S&H
>as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles.
>Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around
>uncles.......

I can offer the K/S perspective (that is, I have about 95% confidence in my
memory.  I *used* to know the history of K/S backwards and forwards).  The
first recognized K/S zine -- I can't even remember the title -- came out in
1976, and was by Gerry D..  But I think it was really tame, more implied
sex than explicit sex.  (Also, it was a sequel to a story published in a
genzine.)  Seems to me there was some other little implied story that came
out shortly thereafter -- oh, I think it was in a WARPED SPACE zine and was
by Leslie Fish.  (Not "The Last of the Hurt/Comfort Syndrome" mentioned last
week or so, but another Leslie F. story, where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are
all in cave.)  Then in 1978, came the first full-fledged K/S anthology,
THRUST.  I think it was also about this time that K/S stories started
showing up in adult (which were mainly hetero) Star Trek zines.  Seems to me
there was an early British K/S zine in there somewhere, too.  In the late
70's and early 80's, there were about 6-8 new K/S zines being published per
year.  K/S was Star Trek's fandom's stepchild and K/Sers often found
themselves in defensive positions.  But something changed, and in the mid to
late 80's K/S was at its peak and 30+ new zines per year were being
published.  I remember that in adzines (printed catalogs of available
fanzines and related material) the vast majority of zine reviews were on K/S
zines.  In other words, by that time slash was dominating Trek fandom.  Even
fans who didn't believe in the K/S concept were reading slash zines, because
(they said) the writing was generally superior to other zines, and/or
because they'd run out of genzines to read.

Since I came into slash via K/S, I had always believed that K/S was the
original slash fandom.  But I know some S/H fans will disagree, as I believe
there was some S/H zine which also came out in 1976.  But I don't know which
zine that was, so maybe those who know S/H's history will jump in here and
enlighten everyone.

At the time I was getting into K/S (mid-80's), there was a big migration of
authors, editors, and fans from K/S to B/D (Bodie/Doyle from the British
series, "The Professionals".)  Since I think the Pros series started in 1978
(?) it couldn't have come before K/S and S/H.  But it sure made an impact
when it appeared.  There were a lot of zines, and even more stories on a
"circuit" where fans simply mailed unpublished stories back and forth to
each other.  Again, there's surely others on this list who can add some
solid facts.

In the mid to late 80's, another program that was making a dent in slash was
the science fiction "Blakes 7" (Blake/Avon).  I know that there were some
MUNCLE slash, though I don't know when that started (the series goes back to
the early 60's).  There were a few other odd, small slash fandoms here and
there ("Wiseguy", "Miami Vice", etc.).  By the time I'd gotten out of K/S
and switched to S/H in the early 90's, it seemed to me that the desire to
slash any two guys in a series had reached the point of ridicule.  (But
then, I slashed two guys from Twin Peaks for a series of stories in a
multimedia zine, and I'm sure that appeared to be ridiculous to some.)  The
size of K/S (and probably B/D), as well as S/H had waned by this time, and I
think 90's slash consisted primarily of a lot of small fandoms.  Though I
don't know anything about the show or fandom, I think "The Sentinel"
(judging from the degree of interest and number of zines at cons) has become
the first huge slash fandom since K/S and Pros.

I'm not sure that S/H was ever a large slash fandom, but again others would
know that more than I.

Taking this little walk down history lane, I do have a bit of nostalgia for
the the fact that zines used to have limited print runs, and therefore they
*increased* in value with time.  I remember paying $80 for an original copy
of THRUST (that's when most new zines cost about $12).  At one time I owned
every K/S zine ever published in the U.S.  It was selling a good portion of
my collection in 1992 that gave me the down payment for my house (most of
those zines were sold for a profit).  I lucked out in the timing, because
within a couple of years after that, zines quit increasing in value because
everyone always kept them in print, since desktop publishing (and high
quality xerox machines) had made the overall printing process much cheaper.

I also have to admit, with some embarrassment, that when I was in K/S, I
(like many fellow K/Sers) looked down on other slash fandoms.  Kirk and
Spock was the only pairing that was... well... logical... in terms of the
characters having genuine feelings of affection for each other that could
realistically lead to slash (plus you have the 23rd century, where it's easy
to make the argument that homosexual activity is no big deal).  S&H had
meant the world to me as a television series, but I had sampled some zines
and they just didn't do much for me.  Most stories seemed to have one
character or the other as gay or bisexual, and it seemed impossible to have
a 70's story without the "gay thing" being an issue.  It also seemed that
most stories were full of  cops n robbers plots (if there was any plot at
all), and that also seemed inferior to the limitless science fiction realm
of "Star Trek".  Plus, the S&H h/c I'd sampled wasn't as good as watching
h/c episodes.  So, the fandom didn't do much for me at the time.  I can't
help but wonder how I might have felt differently if I'd read Suzan Lovett's
novels back then.

Oh, well.  For me, at least, it all worked out all right. :)

Regina

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 
From: kslangley

Although many fans (of many shows) have been writing slash fiction (they
just didn't know that's what it was) for 30 years or more, the first
*published* piece of slash was "A Fragment Out of Time," written by an
Australian fan named Diane Marchant and published in a US zine called "Grup"
(issue #3, September 1974). "Grup" was, at that time, the only "adult" zine
in existence, and extremely tame by current standards.

"Fragment" was . . . well, a story fragment -- a handful of paragraphs, no
names mentioned. Therefore, it didn't register on too many fans' radar
screens. The first really recognized K/S zine was "Alternative: Epilog to
Orion" by Gerry D., from Alaska. Gerry had already printed the first
issue of her genzine, "Stardate: Unknown" and this story was written as a
sequel to one of the stories therein. "Alternative" was printed in the
summer of 1976, about 50 pages. I remember the letter that Gerry had written
to the letterzine "Halkan Council," where she explained that, although Kirk
and Spock do love each other, they would never express it sexually. And now
she's remembered as "The Mother of Slash Fandom."

The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of
a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan
A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of 1977.

The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by
Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become
quite a popular author in S&H fandom).

Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous* price
of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those "outrageous" days
again. . . . <g>

The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and
Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in
another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela D.,
printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power,
1980/81).

I know, I know. Too much information. I'll stop now.

ksl

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 
From: Regina 

At 07:31 AM 6/25/99 -0500, kslangley wrote:

> I remember the letter that Gerry had written
>to the letterzine "Halkan Council," where she explained that, although Kirk
>and Spock do love each other, they would never express it sexually. And now
>she's remembered as "The Mother of Slash Fandom."

Then what was Alternative?  I do remember not really "seeing" the slash in
it (and most of those early "slash" stories were a huge disappointment to
later slash fans who finally obtained them), but I also have a vague
recollection of some very plain drawings that seemed to indicate...
something.  Was Gerry toying with everyone?  Or was it one of those "mass
hysteria" situations where something got labeled out of the public's ability
to brainwash itself (a la the War of the Worlds radio program)?

>The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of
>a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan
>A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of 1977.

Oh, yes, "Shelter" and "Poses".  I liked the former much more than the
latter.  In "Poses" there is real sex, but it almost read tongue-in-cheek,
and I remember Leslie later saying she was poking fun at the idea of
romance in that story (I remember she wrote a commentary once where she said
she detested the word "romance".  Ah, a kindred spirit.... <g>)

>The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by
>Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become
>quite a popular author in S&H fandom).

I believe that was the same group responsible for the first K/S novel,
NIGHTVISIONS.  Like most of this early stuff, it was extremely well written
and edited, but the the story was lacking in terms of detailed sex.  (Most
new fans would get into K/S, find out about all the old stuff, pay a supreme
price for the old stuff, and then read it and find out it wasn't anywhere
near what they really wanted -- the newer stuff was more what they'd had in
mind.  Though I think NIGHTVISIONS was unique in that it hit a lot of fans'
favorite zines list for many years, because it was so well done.)

I also recall, in the 80's, that the big complaint from some of the early
zine publishers was that the newer zines were poorly edited.  Having read
the earliest stuff, I could see what they meant, because that early stuff
was so tightly and perfectly written.  Not a word out of place. But the
subject matter of the early stuff seemed so... esoteric.  There wasn't much
that seemed to be stated very directly.  So, I didn't give much credence to
all those complaints; I loved the new stuff I was reading.  Now, a dozen
years later, I find myself thinking (and sometimes saying), "Gee, online
stories have minimal editing, if any at all.  This new generation of fans
doesn't appreciate anything about the craft of writing.  They don't even
understand what quality is.  What's fandom coming to?" <vbg>

>Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous*
price
>of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those "outrageous"
days
>again. . . . <g>

And then you had all those choices of how to pay to have it shipped. <g>

>The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and
>Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in
>another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela D.,
>printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power,
>1980/81).

Okay, I really question the truth of the above being "first".  I know on
this very list there is someone who has been a S/H fan since day one, told
me that, contrary to popular belief, S/H actually came before K/S.  But I
don't remember any zines names.  Perhaps that person will delurk and offer
her perspective.  (I myself know there was definitely S&H genzines while S&H
was still on the air.)

>I know, I know. Too much information. I'll stop now.

But this is *fun*.  Another thing I was thinking about after sending my post
last night was the sheer number of fans who bought this stuff.  I remember a
K/S editor (we're talking late 80's) telling me that a new zine would sell
about 250 - 300 copies immediately; then sell another 100 within a few
months.  Then a final 50-100 would be sold over a year's time.  For those
zines that were reprinted to meet demand, there were always knew fans
discovering zines and wanting the older stuff.  I'm curious as to how
today's The Sentinel zines compares to these numbers.  (In contrast, it
takes me about two years to sell 100 copies of my S/H zines, though 1/3 to
1/2 will be sold within months of publication.  It's the trickle afterwards
that's so hard to predict.)

(Also a sidenote on the quantity thing.  I heard from a friend of a friend
back in the 80's that a K/S fan and her gay male friend wrote a certain
novel -- I don't want to say the name -- slashing Kirk with an original male
character.  The authors printed 900 copies of the zine.  Interest in the
zine was practically zilch, because most K/S fans had no interest whatsoever
in reading about Kirk with anyone other than Spock.  Even I myself resisted
buying it, since it wouldn't fit into my "true" K/S collection.  Years
later, according to my friend, stacks of those zines were still all over the
authors' house.  The financial loss must have been devastating.  But,
really, they should have known better.  Obviously, they didn't "get" the
point of why there was so much interest in K/S.  Fans wanted to read about
the love they knew and trusted, not just about a beloved male character
having sex with another man.)

Regina

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 
From: bjf 

Thanks for taking the time to list all this, Katherine.  I knew some of it,
but not all.

At 07:31 AM 6/25/99 -0500, kslangley wrote:
>Although many fans (of many shows) have been writing slash fiction (they
>just didn't know that's what it was) for 30 years or more, the first
>*published* piece of slash was "A Fragment Out of Time," written by an
>Australian fan named Diane M. and published in a US zine called
>"Grup" (issue #3, September 1974). "Grup" was, at that time, the only
>"adult" zine in existence, and extremely tame by current standards.

Wasn't there an early British slash zine with a similar name?  Grup or
Grope, maybe?  I remember one story that had Kirk having to cane Spock on
the bridge (I hate the English language sometimes; on the arse on the
bridge), and that causing him to have an erection, which led to pon farr,
which...  I'm afraid I giggled more than the author intended.

>The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of
>a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan
>A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of
1977.

I still love those stories.

>The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by
>Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become
>quite a popular author in S&H fandom).
>Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous*
>price of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those
>"outrageous" days again. . . . <g>

I've seen copies of that for as much as $50, though I'll admit I didn't see
anyone buying it at that price.  I finally found a copy at a reasonable
price at least year's MediaWest, and it holds up well -- it's quite a good
zine.

>The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and
>Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in
>another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela Dale,
>printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power,
>1980/81).

And the names Chris Power and Pamela D. are probably familiar to any Pros
fans on the list.  Chris Power wrote some very good (and very
controversial) stories, including "Consequences" (for which Terri Beckett
was an uncredited collaborator, I've heard) and "Endgame".

--
bjf 

Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it?
Date: 25 Jun 1999 
From: Regina 

At 09:58 AM 6/25/99 -0500, bjf wrote:
>Wasn't there an early British slash zine with a similar name?  Grup or
>Grope, maybe?

Yes, there was a whole series of GROPES.  I never read them, but just from
glancing through them I think they were primarily humorous.

Just an aside, I think it's interesting that British S/H zines don't seem to
be very different from U.S. ones; but in K/S it seems that most of the
British ones had a flavor all their own.  The outlandish humor of the
GROPES aside, it seemed to me that most British K/S zines had Spock as being
the dominant partner (as in Kirk rules by day, Spock by night).  They also,
all in all, seemed to have more of a gay flavor than the American zines.  (I
also have to laugh at the Brit's puzzlement with the Americans' obsession
with water.  Some questioned why the U.S. K and S showered both before and
after nearly every time they did it. <g> )

>I've seen copies of that for as much as $50, though I'll admit I didn't see
>anyone buying it at that price.  I finally found a copy at a reasonable
>price at least year's MediaWest, and it holds up well -- it's quite a good
>zine.

I paid $80 for mine and wasn't able to resale it for quite that much.  And I
didn't like the zine very much.  The stories just didn't do much for me.
But when I did sell off my K/S collection, I got $40 or more for quite a few
of the old out-of-print zines (NIGHTVISION, COMPANION series, etc.)  I'm
surprised that some are still trying to get around $50 for them, as I
thought K/S fandom has shrunk quite a bit the past five or six years, and I
wouldn't have thought the interest was there.  I would still tend to think
K/S can claim the most zines of all slash fandoms.  I had well over 200 at
one point, and by now the number has to be at least twice that.  If you
consider genzines, then I'd tend to think all of classic Trek fandom has
over 1000 zines.

Regina

Subject: [VP] When did IT start?
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 19:50:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Buster1033 

HMMMMM....ANCIENT HISTORY......

Uh.....When did Slash start?  I have to really believe that someone,
somewhere back in the 60's was watching, say.....Star Trek....and wrote in a
loose leaf folder all about the exploits of Kirk and Spock and ....whilst she
was writing this diatribe the thought occurred to her that it would be
so....sweet...dare, I say, ...darling...to have the two in the same
bed...simpatico, just friends....

And then it gets good.

Actually I did know someone, back in the dark ages, that actually, truly on a
stack of zines (good ones, not crap) did this. She was about 16 at the time,
about 1968.  If anyone, I do mean anyone, did 'em before then...they were as
deeply entrenched in the dark parts of fandom (or light...)as she was.

I read (or actually, saw) my first slash fanzine in 1977.  I was innocently
enough in the living room of the above mentioned persons' house, and saw a
fanzine sitting on her coffee table. The zine had arrived by mail just that
day AND she had not had time to hide it from underage *(me, I blush)* eyes.
I snatched it up as she never stopped me before and...
to tell the truth I was terribly freaked out.  There were DRAWINGS in this
zine.   DETAILED drawings, my friends.  I was totally stupid then--I thought
they were hurting each other!  (In a good way, right?)  She turned red,
snatched said zine away from my grasping hands with a, "UH, UH....never mind
about that?  Wanna see CONTACT?"  (A very smarmy and straight zine of the
era--hurt comfort extraordinaire)  It distracted me enough to, Sad To Say,
miss out on my true exposure to slash until 2 years later....

Thank you, Ruth Kurz.  You naughty!!!

Terri L.
