Subject: [VP] Who started it? Date: 24 Jun 1999 From: Blue Starsky < I'm pretty new to slash - been writing and reading it for just under a year now. Up until last year, I had no idea such stories existed, outside my head and the minds of a few of my closest friends! ;-) Anyway, now I'm wondering, when did it start? This may be a question without a clear answer. Maybe someone was conjuring slash stories in her head as Shakespeare was churning out the plays. Probably. And what about that 'Adam and Steve' play that I just heard about?? Here's my Q: With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin? Seems like so many current shows have slash stories being written about them. I might want to see S&H as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles. Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around uncles....... Thanks, Blue Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: 24 Jun 1999 From: Melora Blue Starsky wrote: > I'm pretty new to slash - been writing and reading it for just under a year > now. Up until last year, I had no idea such stories existed, outside my head > and the minds of a few of my closest friends! ;-) GMTA (great minds think alike) > Anyway, now I'm wondering, when did it start? uh---70's, I think. I got into slash a *looooong* time ago-- early eighties, and there was tons of stuff then. ST, S/H, Pros. Got out of fandom for a long time and then rediscovered it when I got a computer and did a search one night on ST. > This may be a question without > a clear answer. Maybe someone was conjuring slash stories in her head as > Shakespeare was churning out the plays. Probably. And what about that'Adam > and Steve' play that I just heard about?? so, what about Adam and Steve? I wanna know. > Here's my Q:With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing > and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin? As far as I know, slash started with Star Trek:TOS (the original series) Kirk and Spock and Pon Farr, Oh! My!! > Seems like so many current > shows have slash stories being written about them. I might want to see S&H > as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles. > Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around > uncles....... Oh, jeez. Blue---*when* are we gonna get to read some of your stuff? I love the pictures you paint with your words. Marcia ; ] > Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 From: Regina At 08:45 PM 6/24/99 PDT, Blue Starsky wrote: >Here's my Q: With what show did some kind of organized slash story writing >and zine publishing and fandom-cheering begin? Seems like so many current >shows have slash stories being written about them. I might want to see S&H >as the granddaddies of slash, but I bet they're more like great uncles. >Great, macho, horny, sweaty, throbbing, undulating, rolling around >uncles....... I can offer the K/S perspective (that is, I have about 95% confidence in my memory. I *used* to know the history of K/S backwards and forwards). The first recognized K/S zine -- I can't even remember the title -- came out in 1976, and was by Gerry D.. But I think it was really tame, more implied sex than explicit sex. (Also, it was a sequel to a story published in a genzine.) Seems to me there was some other little implied story that came out shortly thereafter -- oh, I think it was in a WARPED SPACE zine and was by Leslie Fish. (Not "The Last of the Hurt/Comfort Syndrome" mentioned last week or so, but another Leslie F. story, where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are all in cave.) Then in 1978, came the first full-fledged K/S anthology, THRUST. I think it was also about this time that K/S stories started showing up in adult (which were mainly hetero) Star Trek zines. Seems to me there was an early British K/S zine in there somewhere, too. In the late 70's and early 80's, there were about 6-8 new K/S zines being published per year. K/S was Star Trek's fandom's stepchild and K/Sers often found themselves in defensive positions. But something changed, and in the mid to late 80's K/S was at its peak and 30+ new zines per year were being published. I remember that in adzines (printed catalogs of available fanzines and related material) the vast majority of zine reviews were on K/S zines. In other words, by that time slash was dominating Trek fandom. Even fans who didn't believe in the K/S concept were reading slash zines, because (they said) the writing was generally superior to other zines, and/or because they'd run out of genzines to read. Since I came into slash via K/S, I had always believed that K/S was the original slash fandom. But I know some S/H fans will disagree, as I believe there was some S/H zine which also came out in 1976. But I don't know which zine that was, so maybe those who know S/H's history will jump in here and enlighten everyone. At the time I was getting into K/S (mid-80's), there was a big migration of authors, editors, and fans from K/S to B/D (Bodie/Doyle from the British series, "The Professionals".) Since I think the Pros series started in 1978 (?) it couldn't have come before K/S and S/H. But it sure made an impact when it appeared. There were a lot of zines, and even more stories on a "circuit" where fans simply mailed unpublished stories back and forth to each other. Again, there's surely others on this list who can add some solid facts. In the mid to late 80's, another program that was making a dent in slash was the science fiction "Blakes 7" (Blake/Avon). I know that there were some MUNCLE slash, though I don't know when that started (the series goes back to the early 60's). There were a few other odd, small slash fandoms here and there ("Wiseguy", "Miami Vice", etc.). By the time I'd gotten out of K/S and switched to S/H in the early 90's, it seemed to me that the desire to slash any two guys in a series had reached the point of ridicule. (But then, I slashed two guys from Twin Peaks for a series of stories in a multimedia zine, and I'm sure that appeared to be ridiculous to some.) The size of K/S (and probably B/D), as well as S/H had waned by this time, and I think 90's slash consisted primarily of a lot of small fandoms. Though I don't know anything about the show or fandom, I think "The Sentinel" (judging from the degree of interest and number of zines at cons) has become the first huge slash fandom since K/S and Pros. I'm not sure that S/H was ever a large slash fandom, but again others would know that more than I. Taking this little walk down history lane, I do have a bit of nostalgia for the the fact that zines used to have limited print runs, and therefore they *increased* in value with time. I remember paying $80 for an original copy of THRUST (that's when most new zines cost about $12). At one time I owned every K/S zine ever published in the U.S. It was selling a good portion of my collection in 1992 that gave me the down payment for my house (most of those zines were sold for a profit). I lucked out in the timing, because within a couple of years after that, zines quit increasing in value because everyone always kept them in print, since desktop publishing (and high quality xerox machines) had made the overall printing process much cheaper. I also have to admit, with some embarrassment, that when I was in K/S, I (like many fellow K/Sers) looked down on other slash fandoms. Kirk and Spock was the only pairing that was... well... logical... in terms of the characters having genuine feelings of affection for each other that could realistically lead to slash (plus you have the 23rd century, where it's easy to make the argument that homosexual activity is no big deal). S&H had meant the world to me as a television series, but I had sampled some zines and they just didn't do much for me. Most stories seemed to have one character or the other as gay or bisexual, and it seemed impossible to have a 70's story without the "gay thing" being an issue. It also seemed that most stories were full of cops n robbers plots (if there was any plot at all), and that also seemed inferior to the limitless science fiction realm of "Star Trek". Plus, the S&H h/c I'd sampled wasn't as good as watching h/c episodes. So, the fandom didn't do much for me at the time. I can't help but wonder how I might have felt differently if I'd read Suzan Lovett's novels back then. Oh, well. For me, at least, it all worked out all right. :) Regina Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 From: kslangley Although many fans (of many shows) have been writing slash fiction (they just didn't know that's what it was) for 30 years or more, the first *published* piece of slash was "A Fragment Out of Time," written by an Australian fan named Diane Marchant and published in a US zine called "Grup" (issue #3, September 1974). "Grup" was, at that time, the only "adult" zine in existence, and extremely tame by current standards. "Fragment" was . . . well, a story fragment -- a handful of paragraphs, no names mentioned. Therefore, it didn't register on too many fans' radar screens. The first really recognized K/S zine was "Alternative: Epilog to Orion" by Gerry D., from Alaska. Gerry had already printed the first issue of her genzine, "Stardate: Unknown" and this story was written as a sequel to one of the stories therein. "Alternative" was printed in the summer of 1976, about 50 pages. I remember the letter that Gerry had written to the letterzine "Halkan Council," where she explained that, although Kirk and Spock do love each other, they would never express it sexually. And now she's remembered as "The Mother of Slash Fandom." The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of 1977. The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become quite a popular author in S&H fandom). Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous* price of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those "outrageous" days again. . . . The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela D., printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power, 1980/81). I know, I know. Too much information. I'll stop now. ksl Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 From: Regina At 07:31 AM 6/25/99 -0500, kslangley wrote: > I remember the letter that Gerry had written >to the letterzine "Halkan Council," where she explained that, although Kirk >and Spock do love each other, they would never express it sexually. And now >she's remembered as "The Mother of Slash Fandom." Then what was Alternative? I do remember not really "seeing" the slash in it (and most of those early "slash" stories were a huge disappointment to later slash fans who finally obtained them), but I also have a vague recollection of some very plain drawings that seemed to indicate... something. Was Gerry toying with everyone? Or was it one of those "mass hysteria" situations where something got labeled out of the public's ability to brainwash itself (a la the War of the Worlds radio program)? >The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of >a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan >A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of 1977. Oh, yes, "Shelter" and "Poses". I liked the former much more than the latter. In "Poses" there is real sex, but it almost read tongue-in-cheek, and I remember Leslie later saying she was poking fun at the idea of romance in that story (I remember she wrote a commentary once where she said she detested the word "romance". Ah, a kindred spirit.... ) >The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by >Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become >quite a popular author in S&H fandom). I believe that was the same group responsible for the first K/S novel, NIGHTVISIONS. Like most of this early stuff, it was extremely well written and edited, but the the story was lacking in terms of detailed sex. (Most new fans would get into K/S, find out about all the old stuff, pay a supreme price for the old stuff, and then read it and find out it wasn't anywhere near what they really wanted -- the newer stuff was more what they'd had in mind. Though I think NIGHTVISIONS was unique in that it hit a lot of fans' favorite zines list for many years, because it was so well done.) I also recall, in the 80's, that the big complaint from some of the early zine publishers was that the newer zines were poorly edited. Having read the earliest stuff, I could see what they meant, because that early stuff was so tightly and perfectly written. Not a word out of place. But the subject matter of the early stuff seemed so... esoteric. There wasn't much that seemed to be stated very directly. So, I didn't give much credence to all those complaints; I loved the new stuff I was reading. Now, a dozen years later, I find myself thinking (and sometimes saying), "Gee, online stories have minimal editing, if any at all. This new generation of fans doesn't appreciate anything about the craft of writing. They don't even understand what quality is. What's fandom coming to?" >Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous* price >of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those "outrageous" days >again. . . . And then you had all those choices of how to pay to have it shipped. >The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and >Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in >another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela D., >printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power, >1980/81). Okay, I really question the truth of the above being "first". I know on this very list there is someone who has been a S/H fan since day one, told me that, contrary to popular belief, S/H actually came before K/S. But I don't remember any zines names. Perhaps that person will delurk and offer her perspective. (I myself know there was definitely S&H genzines while S&H was still on the air.) >I know, I know. Too much information. I'll stop now. But this is *fun*. Another thing I was thinking about after sending my post last night was the sheer number of fans who bought this stuff. I remember a K/S editor (we're talking late 80's) telling me that a new zine would sell about 250 - 300 copies immediately; then sell another 100 within a few months. Then a final 50-100 would be sold over a year's time. For those zines that were reprinted to meet demand, there were always knew fans discovering zines and wanting the older stuff. I'm curious as to how today's The Sentinel zines compares to these numbers. (In contrast, it takes me about two years to sell 100 copies of my S/H zines, though 1/3 to 1/2 will be sold within months of publication. It's the trickle afterwards that's so hard to predict.) (Also a sidenote on the quantity thing. I heard from a friend of a friend back in the 80's that a K/S fan and her gay male friend wrote a certain novel -- I don't want to say the name -- slashing Kirk with an original male character. The authors printed 900 copies of the zine. Interest in the zine was practically zilch, because most K/S fans had no interest whatsoever in reading about Kirk with anyone other than Spock. Even I myself resisted buying it, since it wouldn't fit into my "true" K/S collection. Years later, according to my friend, stacks of those zines were still all over the authors' house. The financial loss must have been devastating. But, really, they should have known better. Obviously, they didn't "get" the point of why there was so much interest in K/S. Fans wanted to read about the love they knew and trusted, not just about a beloved male character having sex with another man.) Regina Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 From: bjf Thanks for taking the time to list all this, Katherine. I knew some of it, but not all. At 07:31 AM 6/25/99 -0500, kslangley wrote: >Although many fans (of many shows) have been writing slash fiction (they >just didn't know that's what it was) for 30 years or more, the first >*published* piece of slash was "A Fragment Out of Time," written by an >Australian fan named Diane M. and published in a US zine called >"Grup" (issue #3, September 1974). "Grup" was, at that time, the only >"adult" zine in existence, and extremely tame by current standards. Wasn't there an early British slash zine with a similar name? Grup or Grope, maybe? I remember one story that had Kirk having to cane Spock on the bridge (I hate the English language sometimes; on the arse on the bridge), and that causing him to have an erection, which led to pon farr, which... I'm afraid I giggled more than the author intended. >The next K/S in print was a story in "Warped Space" #20 (the adult issue of >a genzine) in October of 1976 -- "Shelter" by Leslie F. and Joan >A. The sequel, "Poses," followed in "Obsc'zine" #1 in March of 1977. I still love those stories. >The first all-K/S anthology zine was published in 1978, "Thrust," edited by >Carol F. (which included fiction by Teri White, who went on to become >quite a popular author in S&H fandom). >Speaking of zine pricing, that was available for the then *outrageous* >price of $9, including first class postage. Oh, I long for those >"outrageous" days again. . . . I've seen copies of that for as much as $50, though I'll admit I didn't see anyone buying it at that price. I finally found a copy at a reasonable price at least year's MediaWest, and it holds up well -- it's quite a good zine. >The first S/H zine was a British zine, "Forever Autumn," by Sue S. and >Sue M. (March 1980), non-explicit. The next piece was a short story in >another British zine: "Gates of Ivory, Gate of Horn, " by Pamela Dale, >printed in "10:13" Vol. 1 (edited by Terri Beckett and Chris Power, >1980/81). And the names Chris Power and Pamela D. are probably familiar to any Pros fans on the list. Chris Power wrote some very good (and very controversial) stories, including "Consequences" (for which Terri Beckett was an uncredited collaborator, I've heard) and "Endgame". -- bjf Subject: Re: [VP] Who started it? Date: 25 Jun 1999 From: Regina At 09:58 AM 6/25/99 -0500, bjf wrote: >Wasn't there an early British slash zine with a similar name? Grup or >Grope, maybe? Yes, there was a whole series of GROPES. I never read them, but just from glancing through them I think they were primarily humorous. Just an aside, I think it's interesting that British S/H zines don't seem to be very different from U.S. ones; but in K/S it seems that most of the British ones had a flavor all their own. The outlandish humor of the GROPES aside, it seemed to me that most British K/S zines had Spock as being the dominant partner (as in Kirk rules by day, Spock by night). They also, all in all, seemed to have more of a gay flavor than the American zines. (I also have to laugh at the Brit's puzzlement with the Americans' obsession with water. Some questioned why the U.S. K and S showered both before and after nearly every time they did it. ) >I've seen copies of that for as much as $50, though I'll admit I didn't see >anyone buying it at that price. I finally found a copy at a reasonable >price at least year's MediaWest, and it holds up well -- it's quite a good >zine. I paid $80 for mine and wasn't able to resale it for quite that much. And I didn't like the zine very much. The stories just didn't do much for me. But when I did sell off my K/S collection, I got $40 or more for quite a few of the old out-of-print zines (NIGHTVISION, COMPANION series, etc.) I'm surprised that some are still trying to get around $50 for them, as I thought K/S fandom has shrunk quite a bit the past five or six years, and I wouldn't have thought the interest was there. I would still tend to think K/S can claim the most zines of all slash fandoms. I had well over 200 at one point, and by now the number has to be at least twice that. If you consider genzines, then I'd tend to think all of classic Trek fandom has over 1000 zines. Regina Subject: [VP] When did IT start? Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 19:50:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Buster1033 HMMMMM....ANCIENT HISTORY...... Uh.....When did Slash start? I have to really believe that someone, somewhere back in the 60's was watching, say.....Star Trek....and wrote in a loose leaf folder all about the exploits of Kirk and Spock and ....whilst she was writing this diatribe the thought occurred to her that it would be so....sweet...dare, I say, ...darling...to have the two in the same bed...simpatico, just friends.... And then it gets good. Actually I did know someone, back in the dark ages, that actually, truly on a stack of zines (good ones, not crap) did this. She was about 16 at the time, about 1968. If anyone, I do mean anyone, did 'em before then...they were as deeply entrenched in the dark parts of fandom (or light...)as she was. I read (or actually, saw) my first slash fanzine in 1977. I was innocently enough in the living room of the above mentioned persons' house, and saw a fanzine sitting on her coffee table. The zine had arrived by mail just that day AND she had not had time to hide it from underage *(me, I blush)* eyes. I snatched it up as she never stopped me before and... to tell the truth I was terribly freaked out. There were DRAWINGS in this zine. DETAILED drawings, my friends. I was totally stupid then--I thought they were hurting each other! (In a good way, right?) She turned red, snatched said zine away from my grasping hands with a, "UH, UH....never mind about that? Wanna see CONTACT?" (A very smarmy and straight zine of the era--hurt comfort extraordinaire) It distracted me enough to, Sad To Say, miss out on my true exposure to slash until 2 years later.... Thank you, Ruth Kurz. You naughty!!! Terri L.